Firefighters Strike, YES or NO (and your reasons) [Archive]

kopite

13-11-02, 08:39

I`ve voted yes.

I think the strike will put ppl at risk but I do think that the pay increase and objectives set down by the independant board were awful. Increasing the working week, 11% pay increase and reintroducing over time.

40% is too much but surely the government could find the money, Maybe blair could stay in the country for a few months and Prescot could sell one of his cars. Also we could maybe stop giving the imigrants all the stuff and treat them the same way the french and germans do maybe then we could have enough money to pay all the emergency services a wage more inkeeping with the job they do.

yelpir

13-11-02, 10:22

kopite said:
I`ve voted yes.

Also we could maybe stop giving the imigrants all the stuff and treat them the same way the french and germans do maybe then we could have enough money to pay all the emergency services a wage more inkeeping with the job they do.

I'm not sure that amounts for this would actually add up - much as the Daily Mail readers would love to think every problem in the country is caused by immigrants.

40% is a ridiculos pay claim, and lets try to remember it's our taxes that this comes out of. I think fire fighters do an excellent job, but unfortunately lots of people want to do it, so if they're not happy with what they earn - quit. Someone else will do it for the current money ( think there are around 40 applications for every vacancy at the moment ). This may sound harsh but that's a capitalist society and it's the one we choose to live in. They should negotiate based on the 11%, end up with 12 and be damn happy with it. Most people will get 2 - 3 % this year and next.

Joel

13-11-02, 11:06

lets think here, firefighters are on £20,000 a year, there are people who work in our local council who get twice as much for just signing bits of paper, firefighters risk their lives 5 maybe even 10 times a day. i think the government should serioulsy look at how much mp's etc get and realise peoples lives are more important than standing in parliment for a few hours a day.

yelpir

13-11-02, 11:27

joel112 said:
lets think here, firefighters are on £20,000 a year, there are people who work in our local council who get twice as much for just signing bits of paper, firefighters risk their lives 5 maybe even 10 times a day. i think the government should serioulsy look at how much mp's etc get and realise peoples lives are more important than standing in parliment for a few hours a day.

Nurses ?
Health Workers ?
Social Workers ?

Let's face it society does not reward people for how important their job is or how hard they have to work. It's market forces. I work in IT and get paid a ridiculous amount for what is at the end of the day sitting and typing. I won't try to defend my pay, however pay is indicitive of supply of people and demand for work. Yes there is a high demand for firefighters but there is also a very high supply of people willing to do the job for the current salary.

People see jobs like this as a vocation - and as such these jobs are not well paid. If they are unhappy they should go become an MP or a civil servant.

Most of the firefighters on the 20K salary joined 2 - 4 years ago when it was clearly known that in 2 - 4 years they'd be on 20K a year. To now turn around and say "ooh that's not enough to live on" is just poor foresight on their part. As stated before I do think they do an excellent job and do not wish to demeen them, however if I were in their position I'd take 11% over 2 years and if it really were not enough to live on I'd start looking for another career.

Bob

13-11-02, 11:49

The 40% seems alot but it is based on a significant backlog of negligable increases whilst their standard of training and required qualifications escalated.

As a single rise I think it is unreasonable - although I do think their pay should escalate rapidly over the next few years - they do a good and dangerous job.

It has also been pointed out that there are many applicants for jobs. How many of those are suitable? That is a far more relevant statistic.

bernmc

13-11-02, 12:58

This problem is common to most of the government services - our pay has steadily fallen behind private sector equivalents. I've studied for 14 years to get where I am now, and I still have to spend my F@*ing evenings with my face buried in a book. I make a mistake, someone dies/is disfigured/scarred for life. I work days/nights & weekends in random order...my pay... around £15 hour. I pick up the phone, call a plumber, and the bugger has charged me £70 quid before he's through the door. If he makes a mistake, the house is cold for the night :(.

As Bob says, that 40% is only playing catchup - it's a result of chronic underpayment.

I say well done to the firefighters for sticking to their word. At the end of the day, it's not them putting people at risk - it's the bean-pushers who won't come to a reasonable arrangement with them. This government is very good at blaming everyone but themselves.

Just wish my lot would get it toogether and follow suit!

kopite

13-11-02, 13:44

The Mp`s all talk about how they only want whats best for the country. if thats true why are their wage checks all big and fat? Surely they should take less home and put the money into the country that they claim to care for

Hwulex

13-11-02, 14:57

I'm all for the strike, and good on them for doing so.
I think it's disgusting the amount they get paid, and as said, the 40% is only playing catch up.

And, as per the other thread, stop spending so much money on the god damn bloody immigrants, and start giving it to people who deserver it!

kopite

13-11-02, 15:05

here here. Why should the immigrants get better treatment than ppl who are english by birth?

yelpir

13-11-02, 15:51

kopite said:
here here. Why should the immigrants get better treatment than ppl who are english by birth?

You a member of the BNP by any chance, no doubt you can trace your family tree back 60 generations or Pure Blood eh ?
But most people in this country are immigrants or only a generation or 2 from an immigrant. This isn't the middle ages, people migrate all over the world. I'm not saying there aren't people who fiddle the system but there's probably a damn site more unemployed members of the BNP and their ilk you fiddle a lot more.

Hwulex

13-11-02, 15:58

Yeah, I have foreign blood in me, but my family was never a bunch of frikkin free-loaders!

But the point is, if you're seeking asylum or whatever, you stop in the first safe country you get to. Now, I may of failed A-Level geography, but I'm damn sure their nearest safe country isn't England!

But anyway, that's for the other thread.

Err... Go firemen! :- :p

Twigman

13-11-02, 16:25

I think they probably should. I remeber them saying on the news their current pay and it was apalling to be honest!

kopite

13-11-02, 16:42

I am not a member of the bnp but what what as hwu said about the asylum seekers coming here and free loading.

I dont agree with residents of this country being treated worse that the asylum seekers. surely we should be sorting out our own problems first without sorting out everyone elses.

At the moment our emergency services arent exactly brilliant

Joel

13-11-02, 16:43

yelpir said:

Nurses ?
Health Workers ?
Social Workers ?

do they risk there lives every day??

kopite

13-11-02, 16:45

Social workers are put in bad situations A friend of mine got raped as a social worked going into someones house to clean help them

Andy King Of All

13-11-02, 18:03

NO!!!

they should not be on strike. When they signed up for the job they knew the pay and the risks and accepted it. Now they are getting greedy. If they get paid more than all the other public service workers are gonna go on strike too. This is not only gonna lead to chaos but also infaltion. Add to that the fact that the treasury is already £7billion in trouble the net result will be a rise in taxes or a cut in funding for other services.

So firefighters you do a good job and risk your lives, but stop been greedy, you knew what was involved and accepted it

Hwulex

13-11-02, 18:28

Andy King Of All said:
or a cut in funding for other services.
As per other thread.

Show immigrants the door, and we'll have more money for everyone.

Andy King Of All

13-11-02, 18:30

yeah, but not enough moeny to pay all our public sector workers the wages they want

RTT

13-11-02, 18:54

tell all those damn immigrants to **** off, put even more tax onto cigarettes, and then spend all that cash on worthwhile things like paying firemen decent wages and improving things such as Education and the NHS.

Roker

13-11-02, 20:38

If 40% is good enough for MPs then it's good enough for every one else.
Public sector pay has been steadily eroded by successive Conservative governments and now it's time to redress the balance. Don't forget that these people are the ones that voted for a Labour government because they were sick and tired of the failings of the Cons. Unfortunately it appears that Blair was a Con all along.

Nobody wants to return to the 3 day week or the misery of the seventies, but nobody wants to continue the current downward spiral either.

Taking away the rights of workers to withhold their labour was just another Cons trick to keep wages down. Maggie took away the pay bargaining rights of teachers years ago, supposedly for ONE year. They have never been given back........

Roker.

Jay

13-11-02, 21:39

Tube drivers get paid more than firemen. Nuff said!

40% is the starting point for negotiations. But the government are too stupid to see that.

Imagine I want to sell a car for £1000.
I put it in the Automart for £1500.
Bloke offers me £1100.
Result!
He's saved £400!!
;)

See what I did there Congressman Blair?

berkleyhunt

13-11-02, 22:39

I think they are being greedy I think there current pay is not far off fair, I print hundreds of job applications for firemen every year gags of people apply because they know its a nice little number , second jobs , early retirement , nice pension etc. they vitually have to beat people away with a ****ty stick.
If the gov. cave in on this then all the rest of the public sector will fancy a pop.
And as for them moaning about being on the bread line... do me a favour I dont earn anywhere near the amount these people earn and Im no were near the bread line!!
They arnt even being flexible over terms.
As for the job being dangerous tell me how many firmen have died in the line of duty in the past ten years?? relative to other occupations?? I bet more have died in the construction industry.
I mean firemen earning £30,000 a year the worlds going mad!
Just wait until people start dying in house fires see if they have the public on their side then?

Jay

13-11-02, 23:50

because they know its a nice little number, second jobs, early retirement
second job 'cos the pay is sh1te.
early retirement 'cos they are ill through stress, smoke inhalation, etc.

Just wait until people start dying in house fires
And then maybe the government will see how much the fireman are really worth!

stav

14-11-02, 01:24

Firefighter pay
Pre-qualifying: £16,941 to £19,776
Fully qualified: £21,531 rising to £22,491 after 15 years
Leading firefighter: £23,055 rising to £24,006
Sub-officer: £23,643 rising to £25,503
Station officer: £27,426 rising to £29,577
Source: FBU

the above is fact.

People should forget the percentages.. 40% of peanuts is peanuts. A Station Officer at the top of his game earns about half what I do in a nice safe 9-5 office job..

They are on strike, but will still respond to an emergency, being on strike does not mean they stay home. The stations will be manned, they just won't come to get your cat out of a tree.

Tony Bliar (no I didn't misspell it) says they are being greedy asking for 40% on their peanuts, so what does that make him? He got 40% on his big bucks only weeks ago.

Lots apply to join, but very few pass the stringent entrance tests. These peeps who are in charge of peoples lives, and use hundreds of thousands of pounds worth of state of the art gear, are classed as manual workers by our government and are paid accordingly..

give them the money, reduce MP's salaries to pay for it!

(ps. i am not a firefighter, don't have any firefighter relatives and don't know any firefighters lol..)

berkleyhunt

14-11-02, 07:17

Lots apply to join, but very few pass the stringent entrance tests.
Well you can be picky if loads of people apply. Stringent entrance tests? what letting 5 foot women in and positively disriminating for the 'minorities'?

are classed as manual workers by our government and are paid accordingly..
They are manual workers! its not a desk job is it.

second job 'cos the pay is sh1te.
Yes but **** pay second job + £20,000 = not bad a little number in my book.

Im talking as a person on a low 'manual worker' wage and I find it personally insulting that these people talk about being on the bread line struggling to cope. When they earn a vastly superior wage to me.

p.s. Im not complaining about my wage, im happy with what I get for my job, i.e. the going rate, what the market will stand.

Bob

14-11-02, 08:07

No there haven't been many deaths recently - um looking at new york for a moment...
And looking to the very recent funeral...

The point is that they are highly trained and do put them selves in very dangerous situations to help others (maybe you)

I think a maximum £30k for a station master is abysmal...

metz

14-11-02, 08:28

joel112 said:

do they risk there lives every day??

Police?

metz

14-11-02, 08:33

berkleyhunt said:

I find it personally insulting that these people talk about being on the bread line struggling to cope. When they earn a vastly superior wage to me.

Totally agree. If they get £30k, then I think I'll be changing career...

Also, what about the army? They have salaries of £20k, and they are bound to risk their lives / die at some point. The problem for them is that they are not allowed by law to go on strike. All the military people on the news seem pretty pi55ed off about having to be stand-in firemen...

stav

14-11-02, 23:59

the Police are not classed as manual workers, and are paid a little better.. still not nearly enough by any means..

the 22k is what they get after 15 years service.. (if they live that long)

one of the easy tests anyone can do...

they lock you in a room.. no windows....no lights.. they start to fill it up with smoke, and time how long it takes you to start hammering desperately on the door to be let out...

anyone can calmly hold their breath as long as possible in the smoke filled dark without panicing.... erm... maybe not eh?

berkleyhunt

15-11-02, 06:53

one of the easy tests anyone can do...they lock you in a room.. no windows....no lights.. they start to fill it up with smoke, and time how long it takes you to start hammering desperately on the door to be let out...

anyone can calmly hold their breath as long as possible in the smoke filled dark without panicing.... erm... maybe not eh?

What does that prove???
There are lots of jobs I wouldnt want to do cleaning toilets for one, so should we pay cleaners 30K??
There are plenty of people willing to be firefighters before all this for 20K.

One more thing if they get their 30K will they all give up their extra jobs???? may not.

metz

15-11-02, 09:03

berkleyhunt said:

What does that prove???
There are lots of jobs I wouldnt want to do cleaning toilets for one, so should we pay cleaners 30K??
There are plenty of people willing to be firefighters before all this for 20K.

One more thing if they get their 30K will they all give up their extra jobs???? may not.

Very true... firefighters are paid less because it is classed as a non-skilled job (I know it involves a fair bit of skill). I believe you can become a firefighter with less qualifications than that of say an architect or an engineer, and hence the wage differences. We must remember that the current firemen chose to be firemen. They could have opted for a job such as engineering.

If they get their pay rise (of 40%... I agree with one of about 15%) then it will justify all other "non desirable" jobs having their staff striking and causing chaos.

stav

16-11-02, 01:07

um...its a non-skilled job but the army can't do it..... or are you saying they are non-skilled too? THe comments about the army being low paid are inappropriate as the circumstances are different... Army are fed clothed and HOUSED by the government.. ie the taxpayer (you and me)

And again..can i point out, that in a real emergency the firemen will all turn out.. they are not skiving at home, they are all manning the stations as normal.... just not answering normal calls..

i think for the record that they would accept 20%.. i reckon they picked 40% as their starting figure because its exactly the percentage Mr Blair awared himself just a few weeks ago...

the offer at the moment is a joke.. 11% OVER TWO YEARS...but... they have to increase their working hours.... so wheres the increase?

as for the tests... only reason i described one is that a comment was made saying the tests were not stringent... made a racist and sexist remark also about women and 'ethnic minorities' that is one of a whole raft of tests that all would be firefighters have to go through.. the women too.. and thats just to be accepted for traing.. which you can still fail.

are you saying that if you are trapped in a burning building, you wouldn't let a female firefighter rescue you?

btw... i hope the little scouse scrotes that set stuff alight just to call out the army and watch them struggle to put the fire out, are one day trapped in a burning building with nobody around to risk their lives to save them...

Bob

16-11-02, 08:02

The real joke is the pay rise MPs gave themselves.

I mean - how many people get to determine their own pay packet?

berkleyhunt

16-11-02, 23:13

Im sorry but if they are so 'hyper skilled' how come they dont need any qualifications to enter the service?
The main emphasis seems to be on physical qualities, as would be for a manual job. Not that I am saying they are with out skills but £30,000?? please!! no way! some graduates wont earn that!

The more I read the below link the more I think 40% is a joke.

recruitment info click here (http://www.fireservice.co.uk/recruitfaq.php#11)

is that a comment was made saying the tests were not stringent... made a racist and sexist remark also about women and 'ethnic minorities'
I havent seen any racist or sexist remarks ?? just factual observations that they have removed the height bar to let women in, well the majority of them (most of them are quite short ). They are trying to get more 'minorities' in. Not doing what they should do which is to get the best people for the job, bar sex or race.

Blair really has to stand up to them or it will be the winter of discontent all over again.

Hwulex

16-11-02, 23:34

jdickerson

17-11-02, 00:29

Also, what about the army? They have salaries of £20k, and they are bound to risk their lives / die at some point. The problem for them is that they are not allowed by law to go on strike. All the military people on the news seem pretty pi55ed off about having to be stand-in firemen...

Army earn less than that - most of em anyway...

THe comments about the army being low paid are inappropriate as the circumstances are different... Army are fed clothed and HOUSED by the government.. ie the taxpayer (you and me)

Er... armed forces have to pay rent and food charges if they live on a base BTW.

jdickerson

17-11-02, 00:37

CHARGES

Food

Personnel living in Single Living Accommodation pay a weekly food charge. This is currently £23.66 for single personnel and £17.29 for married accompanied personnel. These charges are for England, Scotland and Wales, and vary elsewhere. Personnel are not charged when serving afloat or under 'field conditions'.

Accommodation

Officers living in shore accommodation provided by the Service pay a monthly charge for the accommodation. This varies depending on your rank and the standard of accommodation provided, this is between £41 and £118 per month.

berkleyhunt

17-11-02, 00:43

Ok, as has been said before, they're not actually wanting 40%. That is merely a starting figure for negotiations, I'm sure they'd agree to merely half that, or as reported this evening, even 16.5%, but the government are too stupid to understand negotiations.

Yes I did appreciate that the firefighters wouldnt in thier wildest dreams think that they would land 40%.
But when they do settle on 12-17% who is going to be next??
Every public service worker is going to be rubbing their hands.
Will any of them agree to end any restrictive practices or embrace reforms?? to enable providing the public with better services? there has to be give and take on both sides.
If my council tax is going to go though the roof so that Mr fireman etc. can have more cash in his back pocket then I want something to show for it.

Andy King Of All

24-11-02, 17:02

I only have one thig to say about the FBU....the leader is a commie and a fool.

The union ain't gonna win, i say 16% is fair and they should have taken it. But if they knew the pay in the first place why did they join?? They are now in it just for a fight, and look what happened to the country last time this thing happened.